InDesign CS2 uses two document profiles, RGB & CMYK. I have been using a "late binding" workflow with an Epson R1800 "RGB" printer, letting InDesign convert to the Printer Profile.

I was surprised I cannot use the RGB document space and let ID Determine Colors for the CMYK Printer Profile for a Phaser CMYK solid ink printer.

For CMYK printers are my placed sRGB images converted to the CMYK working space of the InDesign file for output, or are they just passed through so I can still allow ID to Determine Colors for Printer Profile selected ?

Does the same hold true for separations made to film or plates?

Thanks, Mark
Mac OS 10.4

Mark,

First, I work on a PC, so there may be some differences. I have sporadically had problems getting accurate color from IDCS2 when outputting to an RGB printer. I'm not sure why it happens, and nobody (including Adobe) has managed to explain what happens with RGB files sent to RGB devices. So, for that reason alone, I do not recommend using late binding workflows. I think it is an Adobe print engine issue, but they'd deny it no doubt, as they usually do. When the couldn't solve the problem, they just became "unavailable". In theory, when printing from IDCS2, the ID print engine will convert ALL document colors to your intended print space.

If my final intent is a press or other CMYK based device, I always place CMYK images into ID. I soft proof my final output space while editing in Photoshop, which I trust a lot more than I do ID. By the way, I have not had any problem with CMYK files rendering incorrectly, so that seems to work fine.

I don't have ID open right now, so I cannot answer some of your specific questions. For proofing on an RGB inkjet device, here is what I do.

1. Create the entire document in the destination CMYK space, including all placed images. Make sure the ID document itself is set to the same CMYK workspace, and make sure the document blend space is set to CMYK.

2. For proofing on an RGB inkjet, I first export to PDF, leaving color unchanged. Then I open the PDF in Acrobat and set up my print stream to have the correct printer profiles, etc.

3. I usually send both the IDCS2 file and the PDF to my commercial printer. This way they have both, just in case there is an issue with the IDCS2 file. And I ALWAYS have them generate a color proof on their inkjet as a contract proof. I like to compare it to my inkjet proof to make sure everything is right.

I hope this helps somewhat, though it doesn't take you in the exact direction you intended. I think Adobe still has work to do on their program, but perhaps this has been fixed in later releases of ID.

Lou

Hi Lou

do you now if this problem fixt in IDcs3 or cs4?

thank

Kokii,

I don't know if it is fixed or not. I haven't used either IDCS3 or IDCS4.

When printing RGB files from ID to an RGB inkjet, sometimes I would get some very strange color shifts. It would often have a pink/magenta cast in the print. It wasn't incorrect settings, plugged nozzles, or anything else. I tried printing with "Preserve RGB Numbers" both checked and unchecked, and both introduced problems. It wasn't a corrupt file either. I checked many times and spent a few hundred hours trying to solve the problem (on two separate computers, with fresh installations of IDCS2). I never had the problem with IDCS1.

I finally gave up. If I have to proof any ID file on an RGB inkjet, I always export to PDF and then print from the PDF file. That always works for me and the colors match.

Lou

Thank Lou

what you meam "RGB inkjet..."? did you mean more 4 ink?

thank

Lou, thanks for your reply. I achieve consistent and accurate using a color managed late binding work flow from all the CS2 applications to my Epson R1800 "RGB" ink jet printer. Same print results using PS, ID & Acrobat tested with photos and a test print with a Granger rainbow, gradients, and 20 step grey scale patterns.

I like late binding as the work may be output to different devices & I try to avoid having multiple copies of things targeted to a certain printer or paper. Basically I can keep a single image in the edit space of sRGB, Adobe RGB or perhaps even ProPhoto.

My question is in regard to the CMYK printer and the fact that InDesign pulls up the CMYK profile of the document as the source. I was wondering if during printing the application converts the placed RGB files to that document CMYK space or if it is just passed through and the Printer Profile should be used to Determine Colors.

I am trying to avoid a possible double application of CMYK profiles. And I am trying to get a handle on this in advance of some volume printing -- the Xerox Phaser solid ink uses a lot of ink just warming up.

A common problem with (at least) Epson ink jet printers is double color management causing magenta prints -- occasional if the Epson driver is switching back to a default of color management.

But back to the question of this thread. Late binding from IDcs2 to a CMYK printer, when does a conversion to a CMYK space take place during printing -- from the document source, or is it just at the printer profile? I guess it should not be that different an RGB to RGB conversion, so I will assume the latter -- at least for placed images!. It is disconcerting to see the Document Space as CMYK.

Mark
Mac 10.4, CS2, Phaser 8400 PostScript
- - -

Kokii,

All printers use CMYK inks, and some use additional inks, such as light cyan, light magent, and even red, green and blue for extended gamut. The "RGB" refers to the data stream that is sent to the printer.

If you are using a standard printer driver, the data stream is sent to the printer as RGB data, then the driver converts the RGB data so the printer can print it. "CMYK" printers are usually driven by a RIP, so they expect to receive a CMYK data stream.

Lou

Mark,

Glad you aren't having the problems I had. I never did figure it out, and I have done this stuff professionally for years. It happened sporadically, but enough to make me find a work-around.

I agree that late binding can be very attractive (as long as it works, which it seems to for you).

InDesign does NOT convert to the default document space during printing. It uses the default document space to define all "native components", such as text, lines, color blocks and other elements created directly inside of InDesign. Any placed images that are untagged, are assigned the default CMYK or RGB color space (depending on whether they are RGB or CMYK images). Let's assume your default document space is US Web Coated SWOP v2. If you are outputting to US Sheetfed Coated or another CMYK space, then ALL native and untagged elements will be converted to the new CMYK space. If you are printing to US Web Coated SWOP v2, then no conversion will take place, since both source and destination spaces are identical.

Placed components with tags, whether RGB or CMYK, will be converted to your destination space if they are different from the source tag. ID looks at each element, one by one, to determine if conversion is required, then converts on the fly as part of the printing process. Tagged elements are handled separately and are not affected by the document default color space.

A common problem with (at least) Epson ink jet printers is double color management causing magenta prints -- occasional if the Epson driver is switching back to a default of color management.

I always used Epson printers for my proofing, and ALWAYS had color management turned off in the driver, and used custom profiles. I appreciate the info, though.

I hope the above answers your questions.

Lou

Thank you Lou!

Mark,

That would make sense to me. If the final output is destined to go to a RIP, then ONLY CMYK profiles should be displayed. If the final output will be sent to a print driver, then being an RGB device, only RGB devices should be listed. There is no reason for ID to list RGB profiles if your destination space is a CMYK RIP, and vice versa.

This simply means that ALL elements in the InDesign file will be converted to the destination space, whether the ID components are RGB or CMYK, as it should be.

Lou